[00:00:00] Bridget Scanlon: Welcome to the Water Resources Podcast. I am Bridget Scanlon. In this podcast, we discuss water challenges with leading experts, including topics on extreme climate events, over exploitation, and potential solutions towards more sustainable management.
I would like to welcome Maysoon Al-Zoubi to the podcast. We recently met at a National Academy meeting in California where Maysoon is serving on the committee on transboundary water security. She is currently serving as project manager for a Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) Green Climate Fund with over $30 million to improve water use in agriculture in Jordan.
Maysoon has had a wonderful career and prior to this FAO program, she served as Secretary General of the Jordan Ministry of Water and Irrigation from 2009 to 2012, then Senior Policy Analyst, Economic Affairs Department at the Heshmite Royal Court, 2007 to 2009 and seconded to Prime Ministery of Jordan as Senior Infrastructure Specialist in 2005 through 2007.
Thank you so much for joining me today, Maysoon.
My pleasure. Hi.
Today, we're going to talk about water issues in Jordan and some of the key challenges related to increasing demand from population growth and refugees coming into the country, decreasing supplies with over exploitation of groundwater, and potential solutions to the water crisis. And Maysoon’s roles in various projects, as I just mentioned, are highly relevant to these solutions, including a technical committee chair for the Red Dead Sea project, a negotiator and ambassador for Climate Change, Jordan and Chair of the Management Committee for the Blue Peace Middle East Regional Mechanism, and Initiator and Co-Founder of Women in Water Diplomacy in the Middle East North Africa Region. So, incredible expertise that's highly relevant for water resources. So Maysoon, many of my listeners may not be familiar with Jordan and water resources in Jordan. So maybe you can give some background on that.
[00:02:25] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: Sure. Hi to everyone. First about Jordan. Officially, it is, we call it the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. It is a middle-income country with refugees becoming low income with very limited natural resources and semi-arid climate. Jordan area is around 89, 000 square kilometer surrounding by regional conflict, and that is why we have many refugees that we are receiving and take care of.
Approximately 75% of Jordan, the land is covered by Arabian desert. However, we have like in the Western part of Jordan is Arabian and forest land. The capital is Amman. It is divided into 12 governorates, and Jordan can be divided into three main geographic and climate areas.
The Jordan Valley, which is, the most distinctive natural feature. It is part of a great rift Valley off Africa. And where is the way the Arab are is there?
And then also we have a mountain height plateau.
And as I said, 75 of the Jordan, it's Arabian desert says with this Jordan, and
Jordan, it is among Syria, Palestine, Israel, and Iraq. See all the countries that, yeah, and inshallah, everything in the future will be better.
But we are in, like I said, and surrounded by regional conflicts.
Now to water in a brief, we used to be the third poorest water scarcity in the world, but. With the latest water strategy and now we, the per capita availability of water per person per year, it is 61 cubic meters per person per day (LPD). We are now the poorest. Comparing the poverty line of scarce water is 500.
So you imagine that the per capita availability of water, 61 cubic meter for all uses, 40% of our, water is shared water, and unfortunately we are in all of shared water in the downstream. The the cost of water is very expensive because of the scarcity of water it is around for, to produce one cubic meter of water, it costs us 3 US dollars.
From the production for this is the one of course we need to provide people what we have. The water that we have in Jordan is barely enough for 3 to 4 million people. We are serving how 11.5 million now. And they are increasing. And this is not because our natural growth, it's because basically of, of the refugees that we are.
So to provide people, those people with enough amount of water for drinking purposes, we over pump this continuous over pumping of a very precious ground water resources. Yeah, most of the basin we are pumped like hundred pers more twice, the lucky one twice of its safe yield definitely structural imbalance between water supply and supply demand.
Of course, consequences of climate change already present, but this is in a brief.
[00:05:45] Bridget Scanlon: Right. Thank you so much for providing such a short intro to Jordan. And so it's interesting. I mean, you go from Mediterranean climate in the Jordan Valley, and then you have the high areas to the east, and then you get into the desert, the bottom desert.
So, and you mentioned 75 percent is desert, and then the water resources are limited, you have the Jordan River as a boundary with Israel and the West Bank, and then you have the Yarmouk River, I guess it's a tributary to the Jordan, so they're probably the two main surface water bodies. And then you have a number of aquifers that you mentioned are being overexploited because your population growth far exceeds what the natural growth would be because of all the refugees that you host because of your position in these countries.
And you help these refugees. So that's really good.
[00:06:39] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: That's a bridge to connect any with the Jordan River. There is no river. If you can come and see, actually, it is a stream and some places and the drive with the surface water. And Yarmouk River, and because of climate change and the shortage of water, and we receive very little from Yarmouk.
Most of the water, it is groundwater and, later I will tell you the, our resources, but mostly it is groundwater and we have some dams where we harvest water and keep them for our usage.
[00:07:12] Bridget Scanlon: Well, thanks for correcting me on that because I mean, when we title something a river, we think there must be some water there, but maybe not necessarily.
So, we hear a lot these days about regions experiencing droughts and floods and related climate change, increasing temperature and evaporation. And so, the projections then for water resources are not great for Jordan. And I was reading one of Steve Gorelick's papers recently, and he mentioned also that if the irrigated agriculture in Syria recovers, that would also impact water availability for Jordan.
And you mentioned when we were chatting in California, flash floods and especially in 2018 and killing 21 students and also 10 Israeli students in a different flooding event. So these are big issues for Jordan, these climate extremes. Maybe you can describe a little bit how you're planning on trying to deal with those.
[00:08:13] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: Like you said, the climate change induced hazards such as droughts, extreme temperature, flash floods have in Jordan have almost tripled in Jordan since 1980s comparing to doubling worldwide. This is exposing the population to loss of life, livelihood and property. And you heard about it happens two times with the Dead Sea where we lost 20 students, they were there. This flash flood we have, it is, you will see a huge amount of water and rather than you benefit from this water, it damaged, it destroyed. It is very dangerous. If you come to Jordan, come and visit this wadi and the Dead Sea where we lost those students. Very dangerous. It's a heavy, very heavy rain. Take with it all the rocks and the stone, and it's a disaster.
But this is with the flash flood. It's one of the things that happens with the climate change. It damaged everything. It damaged lost life, lost livelihood, properties. And then also, it's not only so, according to the expectation or prediction of climate change. In Jordan, we're expecting the temperature will be increasing from 1 to 3 degrees centigrade.
And if you look at this means the demand will be, it will increase the demand will increase evaporation, and we're suffering from scarcity of water, little amount of water and with the climate change because the climate change impact basically on the availability of water, which is already low in Jordan.
If you look at our resources, it depends on rainfall, right? Because dams, even ground water recharge of the ground water. So yeah. Most of our water resources depend on the rainfall, and according also to the expectation, they're expecting the precipitation to be decreased from 20 to 25% reduction. And we witnessed this.
I read, and I showed it to you, but it is in Arabic, so the Water Balance and Ministry of Water, they said, The amount of precipitation, the amount of rainfall is too little this year, which is force us to over pumping our groundwater, so no water to recharge and we have to supply people with water. So we have to over pump this water.
Also, it's not only the amount of precipitation and temperatures, it's also changing in season. Now we witness a more drier autumn, more drier winter. These people in Washington, when we talk about this, they cannot even imagine this or spaces, other spaces not like us in the Middle East. And even in, in summer, it is more extreme temperature, a wave of heat waves.
Now you have to come to Jordan, we suffer from the high temperature and you know what it's impact circumstances off evaporation. Most of our water. We are losing this because of evaporation. The demand is is higher. And again, also the flash floods that I said for people, they may be said, Okay, it's okay.
You will have a lot of what we are not ready for that. Hello for this. We have a special they formulated a special policy for one for a drought. And other one for climate change. And now we in Jordan, we are not closer with this. Climate change issue, but we are we affected a lot, especially with this amount. Like I said, the amount of water. We have a special program, a special policy for climate change, how we can tackle to be able to keep or to have more water through adaptation that the project that I'm managing. It is the first will project and we have another project from GEF. Another this climate finance. This is a new thing. And we are studying this because Jordan is one of the country that believe me, it deserve to benefit from this type of finance. But I love this type, although it's very difficult. But the nice and this climate finance type of fund, it is finance that the activity that can help you adapt, which is great thing.
The project that I'm managing, it is the first project that Jordan got or won from the Green Climate Fund. And they are very strict. They don't give the money directly to the government. They give money to accredited agency. To be accredited, it is difficult. And you have accredited agreement or the agreement of accreditation with them.
They monitor you if you're not bad or not doing that, they will cancel this, but this is will make sure another money will go directly and they make sure the money will go directly to activity that can have adaptation mitigation and could be both with my project. It is adaptation because it is FAO is the accredited agency, so it is where it is important.
And joining with the most. It is not more or less agriculture comparing with the country around us. It's like now, 50 percent of water used in agriculture and 40 percent of it, it is reclaimed water. But again, this is our situation. If you compare with the region, it is 80 or 90 for this project is with efficient use of water in agriculture.
We did a lot of things in water demand management, and if you like, now it is with the climate change. We're ready. We have a policy. We have an action plan. It is in our strategy to get ready. But again, Jordan, we suffer from shortage of water
[00:13:54] Bridget Scanlon: for climate change. Now it is worse. Right, right. So no shortage of challenges then.
And as you mentioned, your climate goes from Mediterranean climate in the Jordan Valley, where you're accustomed to winter seasonality, not just decreasing precipitation and increasing temperature. Sure. And then you are ranked, the lowest, country, I guess, per capita water availability in the world.
So it's a tough situation to deal with. So you sent me a report on facts and figures for Jordan on water use, and that was extremely helpful. And so to put this in perspective, it seems like you use about 1 billion cubic meters of water a year. 2022 numbers, that's one cubic kilometers, and that's close to one million acre feet, which is what U.S. listeners may be more accustomed to. One cubic kilometers is, or 1. 2 cubic kilometers per million acre feet. And then the different sectors is described in that report. Irrigation, municipal, and so irrigation and municipal are roughly, I mean, are similar in many areas. Irrigation water use is the dominant one.
But in Jordan, it's similar. And, it's very interesting to see the different sources of water that use the surface water, groundwater, and groundwater. a huge contribution of wastewater reuse. So maybe you can describe that, Maysoon, and how that has evolved over time, because you have been involved in those projects, I think, over the years.
So, this wastewater reuse is a huge part of your water budget.
[00:15:42] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: Like you said, the water, the total water use is 1,130 million m3, and it's almost, yeah, And it is if at the by sectors like you see, 46 percent is for municipal 50 for agriculture, and you will see for industry. It is 3%. So we're not using water to be rich.
We use water to serve Jordanians and refugees with the drinking purposes and also with the light itself with the ground water. The majority is with the ground water. It is like 600 and the number you have it. And then after that surface water, it's basically it is a dance that we have.
And I don't know if you heard about last year or the dams were dry because of climate change. No rain. And we have a big conflict in Jordan. They thought that we deliberately, they still, we need to educate the Jordanians. We have a problem of climate change. Climate change means more evaporation, means higher demand, less precipitation.
This is because we work a lot with, but it is important to educate the people about the problem. And this is one of the things that I always, I always focus on. You have to talk with people, tell them so they will understand the challenge that you are facing. It is surface water for us. We now, why, why I told you the cost of water is 3 U.S. dollars. It's very expensive. It is because of the scarcity. We are not, we are now investing in non conventional water. When you, we have this type of water, conventional and non conventional. Conventional, it is surface and the ground water, and it's cost. little to treat this water. So it is there, especially in some countries where they have a big rivers and they can just take the water clean.
And in Jordan, we have also groundwater, which is clean, but again, it cost to do. But because of scarcity, we have to use non conventional means the water that you spend money to produce. It is not a cheap water, like even like And now still we are desalinating the brackish water. Not yet seawater, because of the story of the Red Dead Sea project and how much it's expensive.
We, we, some of water we desalinate, brackish water, it costs, and the re use. For us, Red Dead, we consider reclaimed water in our water budget. It is a renewable resource. We are improving the old, we have Samra, which is the BOT project, the best to produce water. This water reclaimed water. We use it in agriculture or we allocate this water to be used in agriculture, but not law.
An extra amount. We give them reclaimed water to free fresh water for drinking purposes. So you see, in Jordan, we are the only country in the region that have water allocation policy in our policy. First priority is for domestic municipal uses for people to drink. Then agriculture, but with agriculture, we cap water allocated for agriculture.
Under cap, we have two types of agriculture. One in the highland, they use ground water, fresh water, which is better to be used for drinking purposes or municipal. And the other one is Jordan Valley. Jordan Valley, they have the infrastructure ready to observe or to, to take this reclaimed water. But under cap, there will be increased in water, reclaimed water in Jordan Valley, and decrease in Highland, where they use ground water, which is almost depleted. So this is, with this, we don't consider, for these two, so see, in agriculture, we're not giving more. But we, we replace their water and drinking purposes. Then after that, it will be for industrial and mining and, of course, environment.
And more than, like I said, the more, , I will tell you about, maybe, if you like, I tell you how we look at it and manage our water. First of all, the challenges. Scarcity of water is the most challenge that we are suffering. When we talk, when we tell it is scarcity of water, this means the amount of water available is not enough to meet the demand for domestic, for agriculture, for industry, for environment, right?
And this accompanied with high growth of population. When you have a little amount of water and you have a population who are growing, then It's the forces, the market force will interfere or influence the allocation of water. So definitely the water will go to urban, right? Because it is domestic. You have growth of population.
We expand in four years because of the refugees that we have and we have to serve them. And then the water will be reallocated from agriculture and from environment to help people. And the result of this, it will be more stress on waters and water ecosystem. And of course, the production of food and agriculture.
But this is difficult. Overdraft of our groundwater. This is another challenge because of mismanagement, not because we don't know how to manage our water, but we have to provide. And when we have the refugees in the northern part of Jordan, they put them in places where it's already suffering from shortage of water and we don't have.
They say where to put them in Jordan. So it's already suffering from shortage of water. We need to provide them with water. If we provide them with water, then this will affect the availability of water for the Jordanians. It will be more difficult for them. We ration our water, more than 50 percent of Jordanians, they receive their water one day, 24 hours a week.
They are the lucky ones. Some of them may be less than maybe one, one day in two weeks, because we don't have water. We have the network. The connection is great. If you look at the connected people in the urban, it's 96%, but there is no source. No source. This affects the leak. So this is with the why.
We have this also, like I said, the climate change and again, the little amount of water. It's also can be reduced by pollution because of the, the agriculture practice sometimes because of the type of the soil, the leach of. What they do in agriculture can affect the groundwater because we don't not all Jordanian are connected to the wastewater.
So some of them they use. I don't know with the area of refugees, how the septic tank are very well protected. So it might on, especially in Azraq area, the aquifers are shallow. Also, we have this. We have our policy, the policy integrated water resource management. In this, like I said, we invest on producing more water, nonconventional, like more reuse, desalination. Why? Because we need to give time for our groundwater to decrease over pumping. The idea, but what's happened around us didn't help. The plan was when we have a Disi project, it is BOT (Built-Operate-Transfer) project. It's very expensive, done by private sector. The plan was before the Syrian crisis, the plan was, and we have, this will cover 20 percent of the demand.
Then, we use this water with very strict way, so we will stop pumping from aquifers with that amount. But, we received the Syrians, they increased the demand nationwide 20%. So the, this expensive will go there. You see, sometimes you get something very complicated. You can do it. Right. Of course, it is not only, like I said, the idea is to do more with non conventional because it takes time for conventional to replenish and increase the stock of dams.
Even deep aquifers we are studying. Right. And again, we have a shortage, of course, in network because now. Network used to serve 8 million people, let's say, or 7 million people. Now we are 11 million people. So more water. So the pressure will be more on the infrastructures that we already have. So this big number also damaged the development that we already have, the good infrastructure, because now it serves more people.
So it will be like this.
[00:24:46] Bridget Scanlon: Yeah, I think what you do with the wastewater is amazing. I mean, so Jordan, I mean, you're not using your allocation to irrigation and municipal are roughly equal. And so that's unusual because most places that irrigated agriculture is the elephant in the room, but not in Jordan.
And then 40 percent of your irrigation comes from treated wastewater. So are treated by tertiary treatment. Do you have tertiary treatments all in your waste over?
[00:25:17] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: Yes, it's a very well controlled and monitored. We have a special specification for reclaimed water. It is used for now restricted agriculture, the one that you cannot eat it fresh, but with time, but it costs.
If you want to improve, you can treat the wastewater to be drinkable. But in Arab world, we cannot use it for drinkable because of religious issue. But now we are using for poor agriculture, non restricted, Class A. This is very well monitored, Bridget. You cannot have this water by tanker. If you want to provide water, it should be provided from the treatment plants directly to the farm.
Very well monitored. And they will make sure the crops that you irrigate, according to the specification. It's not easy. So in the Jordan, we blend this water. With and of course it follow a specification and very risk. It's not only the specification. We also train everyone work in this water, including farmers how to deal with this type of water, right? Because in Jordan, you never heard. about any waterborne diseases or anybody affected by this type of water. Never, because we are very strict in this. We have special specification. We have a special code and the protocol, how to use this water. It is for agriculture to fresh, like let's pre fresh water.
But again, it's, we use it also for industrial. We use it for potash. We use it for, with agriculture, the cost would, they don't farmers. They don't cut the code. And some of them, they thought, they're doing us a favor, I was in one of the meetings, they're doing us a favor to take this water. I told them, come on, we sell this water, very cheap, comparing with even when we planned to have a nuclear power plant, but still now, not yet, but the plan, you know how we think.
The plan is to have this Red to Dead and a series of different type model of Red to Dead. At that time, when we have the nuclear, the idea is we will give them a reclaimed water. Right. We want to expand As Samra wastewater treatment plant with nuclear to have cheap energy, Right. Yeah. You see nowadays, energy also is very important in us because in Jordan, like 14% or something or nationwide, it's used by water sector.
So we have a special program for the energy efficiency. And this is also go in line with climate change, also to use more renewable water. Right. Renewable energy. And our treatment plants, we encourage the dependency of these plants on the methane they produce. In Samra, they use methane and they use solar.
They, from their byproduct, they cover all energy they need. Because also fantastic. That's great. This is the thing, and I want to tell everyone about our experience. Because, well, exchange, we need, and if I hurt somebody, I will come back and learn from them. But this is the energy with the treatment plants.
Now, we have studies to make if the extra water, not for agriculture, if it's not free, we will use it for artificial recharge. We are studying our aquifers and see where it is appropriate, where it is appropriate to use it for injection. Right. Yeah. For the aquifer rather than not to pump because we're forced to pump to give water people to drink.
Well, we don't have rain, so we have even our dams, our dams, they have a pipe inside it. So the artificial recharge mechanism, it is there. So it is not water because, and now I was in Turkey and they told me, I saw a new type of dams, which is a groundwater. It's underground dams. We visited them. I invited with me the secretary general of the Jordan Valley Authority because they are responsible for dams.
Now, we ask the Turks, they will come and study Jordan. They will tell us where are the potential places to have this type of dams, these dams cheaper than regular dams, less evaporation or maybe no evaporation. And it collects the water that take a run away or escape. We collected and we can use it in a spot where we agriculture for we are ready to learn.
We change even demand management. You don't imagine we have by code. We change the the building codes each house. They have to have a roof tank rainwater harvesting. Of course, where there is a rain more than 200 millimeter/yr, I cannot ask people in the desert to have a rainwater harvesting reservoir where they don't have rain.
How we have, but this is in the guidelines of it is in the building codes that we have. We changed the specification for showers or water devices that it is with the use less water with the pressure and the dual flush. We have it. We have also a regulation for gray water. It's not only black water.
We reuse a gray water. It is not everywhere till now for the household. It is not feasible because we don't have yet a plant that can treat the detergent off kitchen and in Jordan and our words. So most of the water it isn't. Once it is there, we have the right technology. Then people, they can use it and they can use water.
But this is good in mosque. We have this pilot where if you have a mosque, using water for ablution they waste a lot of water. We collect this water and with the schools, if schools beside it would be great thing. So then they collect because it's student, they leave the tap open up, collect this, make a treatment that they use this water for agriculture.
We use this in Dead Sea Spa and in the hotels there because they are not served by wastewater treatment. So they do it themselves. They pump sending to the plants because we cannot cover it with the wastewater. We focus in water supply. But wastewater, it used to be 75% connection. Now because of the big number of population, because it linked to population, it is less than this.
So for the Jordan Valley, we did this PPP (Public Private Partnership) with the GIZ where we have a plant with one of the deceased block. They, they have to have a dual system, this type of a gray water. And with a German company they gave us a planned 50 percent discount. The other 50, this type of PPP, GIZ, they gave them the 50%.
The other 50 by, the company and the hotel, they built a new infrastructure. You have to see, to look at the payback period, how it is successful. They use water for a flushing system. They reuse it. They use water three times. And again, they're well, because they reuse it again. They don't have to pump their waste water many times because it's very expensive.
Because of this pilot, all the hotels around there did it. But this is also grey water. We changed the curriculum. We have water clubs and schools, the people, the students, they live and they know how we manage. Even you know what I did. Women are very important, and I always don't tell women is vulnerable, but women really have to equip to and because they are in the front line.
They have to solve. Yeah, they have to solve all their problems. They have even the farmer. Why in my project? We focus on, of course, we choose the southern governorate of Jordan. Why? Because they are vulnerable, very poor, and they depend on rainfall for their agriculture.
And we focus also on the women. Why? Because women, they are not, no equal accessibility to financing, to knowledge, to information. And they are not part of the decision maker because of water. And so they are not part of the decision maker. They don't know that they need. And they depend, some of them on farms that depend on land for we want to help them for women in our project, like what I did when I was in the Ministry of Water, call it a water wise woman, we train women to be plumbers. And why is that you may be this because in some of the area in Jordan, they are very conservative. They won’t let man to come and fix the pipes or the taps or whatever. So we train a woman and they can make money from it. They will go, they will let them, because for us. The water is very heavily subsidized.
For me, I don't want them even to use water. I mean, for me, it's not like I'm selling a profitable product. I'm selling things that I'm losing because it is heavily subsidized. So I want to help them to use less water. I want to tell them not to wait so we have this wise woman. We trained them. They are our ambassadors that we were very selective in choosing these women's because women because they we need them.
Those who can people listen to them. You will be amazed. I was in one of the meetings with those people in the this rural areas. A lady. She was like 65. She was a trend. She told me I saw the pipeline in the street. Damage broken. I bring my kit and I fix it because they see I send them to sit with people.
They're working in fixing this. They have to see the burden how our people that they are worth to have this water in the tap. It is not easy. The same thing. I'm doing this in my project. We call it a climate wise woman. They are 400 , This we choose like it. We are fore governorates to each governor. It's we train them.
About climate resilience, agriculture practices or any productive practices, whatever. So they are graduated from agriculture department. We train them, those eight women, and then those eight, they have to train 400. How to be more climate resilient in agriculture practices. So this is part woman is very important, especially in a green climate fund.
You have to have a special gender policy. Your activity should be a gender response. We have, Special, individual expert will check every activity. It should be, agenda responsive. So this is what I, I love in this. So, we will work with them and again, part of it also we will studying for sustainability.
It's not in no, this and go this, nice thing in FAO. This is, I dunno if you heard about this field farm school and for this is date. No, the technology they said with farmers decide on the right technology they can adopt. This is important rather than you impose something on them. You want them to buy in. You want them to adopt. You want them, but this is, you cannot force them to follow what you see. It's correct. The idea of the farmer field school. You have the technology, you sit with them, you decide if it is acceptable or not, how you can improve it together. And we have this in the field, we write the curriculum.
So this is the thing with farmers. In every activity, we have to prove it should be 50 percent women, but it's with agriculture. If we cannot, we have to tell them we cannot. There is not enough women with, let's say, a farmer union or water user associations and things. So this is the thing. And also for sustainability, we have one of, in our, my project also, we review all the policy legislation, which is in line with the climate resilience adaptation.
Now, our project's adaptation, but other project could be mitigation or so or what. We will review the policy legislation, and we will tell the shortage or the gap, and we can start retrofit, we cannot do everything under our project. We will also, the curriculum for vocational schools and specialized universities, we updated them to include precious agriculture, water efficiency, and smart agriculture, climate smart agriculture.
And also we will see the specification for reclaimed water because what our project it's set with the reclaimed water because of the amount that we have sometimes with reclaimed water, especially in winter, there is no demand for reclaimed water because they cannot, there is no storage mechanism. So my project is: We will have this pond, a storage mechanism where they can use. You see, I would think we don't want to lose every single drop of water. And of course, we will, like I told you, rainwater harvesting at a household more than 8,000 households. We will build them part of it. They will participate. There is co-financing from them.
They have the house that will benefit. They have to have these water saving devices. So that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Their contribution, if you want to benefit from this, you have to have this water saving devices. You will have also with public buildings, with the schools, a lot of awareness. Yeah.
[00:39:26] Bridget Scanlon: That's amazing.
So you introduced some concepts there. I mean, you were talking about the tourist industry in the Dead Sea and the Dead Sea is the lowest part of the world, 420 meters below sea level. And so the adaptive strategies they've deployed is amazing. So you mentioned public private partnership and, and then to develop that reuse to separate the different types of water and everything.
So that's, it's amazing how well we can adapt when we are forced to do it.
And then I really like what you mentioned about wastewater and storing it over the winter season because there's very little irrigation demand at that time and then storing it for the next season. And when you send me the facts and figures.
It seemed like there were like 500 constructed reservoirs or something. These must be some sort of small storage, areas for harvesting water.
[00:40:20] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: Dams. We have like 13. You're talking about them or Oh, no, I'm talking
[00:40:24] Bridget Scanlon: But these were like a small, very small dams and they listed about 500 of them and I think they were dispersed.
This is like they call it?
[00:40:32] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: Yeah, it's, it's soil dams, wherever possible in Jordan and water harvesting wherever is possible. We, we use, even in Ministry of Agriculture, they have a special program. They give money to the grant for them to make like pond. Even you know what, you know something, it is important storage in the farm, because in Jordan, if you don't have the storage mechanism, you waste the water, because it is, this is your, and we think in everything, so if you give them this, he has to use like this amount of water, they have to use it for this amount, next day he will have, rather than waste this water, Some of the farms, we are help them.
It's not get money. We have this through the donors, the project that we have. We built this, the story like pond or whatever, so they can have this water, they use it when they need it. So it is not in, I have this water. And you will be amazed because I have, when I was in the secretary, I always believe in talking with people.
So I established what we call a Highland Water Forum. It is in the highland area. The problem with water, basically in the highland, we have a lot of illegal water use, not licensed. And if you don't pay, you waste. And people, the groundwater, it is different than surface water. Surface water, you will see the river, and you can measure the flow.
With groundwater, it is different. Some of people, they thought, and there is a river underneath, they don't see. And as long as they pump, the water is there. So we have to teach them with this. So I have this Highland Water Forum. I made it clear to them, the objective is, it's not, I'm not coming to help farmers or to give them free water.
I'm here together to manage our basin, groundwater, more efficiently to protect our water. This is the message. And then we sat together. It's not only farmers. Donors were there because I need the donors to know the real problems. It's not something, Oh, we can do this and that. I need them to hear. And also we have farmers and all stakeholders.
This water, it's not only for you. It is for everyone. And I used to go sit with farmers in their farms. You will be amazed when the farmer, he starts talking as if he is a water expert. I visited, I have this blue piece where we have this youth fellows. I took them to this farmer, he's a friend of mine.
He has a legal, very licensed well, and he knows, and know because of the climate change, they with the license, they bear all the costs. But with the license, we allow them to pump a free quarter. Above the free quarter, they have to pay. For him not to pay. He's very honest man and he's very well educated and he's farmers was he graduated even from the U.S. Wow. And he always attends all workshops, seminars, conferences, how to about climate change because and he spent millions on his farms and he wants to keep this business but legally. So when I took him, he said, I believe because of the climate change, the water available will be less. Then, because it will be less, and I will have this quota, but high evaporation.
So my demand, it's not the quota. Now it's according to the government. Definitely they will decrease the quota because of the shortage of water. But for him, even though the 150,000 m3 that he have free annually, it will not be enough because of climate change, because of evaporation. So from his pocket money, he bought this like a desk from Denmark. It cost him, like he told me, it's 100, 000 Jedis. Big number for farmers, but for him to save water. You see, this, this man, I met him when in the Highland Water Forum, and there is other like him because we sat with them, we educate them, we showed them we have a problem. They believe in us. You see, this is important.
From his own pocket, he bought this, Also he covered the water with surface irrigation, he made one. He said, I bought one. It's expensive, but if it is damaged, we need somebody to come. He invented his own. He has a pipe, plastic pipe where he doesn't, well, it is a waste for him.
So you know what he did? He cut it into pieces. And where is the drip irrigation? He makes a hole. Until, and this hole, he put this pipe and the drip, the drip irrigation from above will go directly to the root. It is from him. And he told me he, with this, he saved 40% of the water. Wow. That's amazing.
He brought this people, listen to this man. Okay, Israel, he told me, rich, but my father, he wants me to be a minister. I said, no, I don't want this. Then he couldn't go by yourself. He didn't give him anything. And he starts now he has farms and it's very efficient. He, he has like a part of his farms, do research, study different type of crops, which one a water tolerant, which one can sustain or drought.
But this is the type of farmers that we have in Jordan. If you come to Jordan, that's why we managed to decrease the amount of water from 72% to 50 and the production increased by 10 times. It's not when I talk about this in some conferences. Okay. You didn't, you stop giving them water, that's why you make it less.
No. They use water more efficiently. Right. And the decrase to 50%. But the production increased by 10 times. Right. You see, when you come, if any time you come to Jordan, come and see those farmers, we have a very, they use hydroponic, they use aeroponic, drip irrigation, it's when you talk with them about the drip irrigation, Oh, this is obsolete, right?
How can we are more advanced? So this is the thing that I wish all donor or researcher to come and see the real life. The real level of technology, and then you go to those people and convince them to improve.
[00:47:29] Bridget Scanlon: Yeah, and I think what you were talking about referring to some was the non-revenue water, so people not paying, and so I've seen in some write ups that it's about 50% of water can be non revenue water, so it seems like you need to get a handle on that.
So just to tell the listeners, you mentioned the refugee population a lot, and so I read that you have about 2. 2, almost 2.2 million registered Palestinian refugees, and then you 1.4 million Syrian refugees from the 2011 civil war. So a lot of refugees, and most of them are not living in camps. You mentioned one of the camps, but most of them live outside of the camps.
So let's talk a little bit. I mean, I know you've been referring to many different solutions there. I'm really interested to learn about these groundwater dams that you were talking about in Turkey soon, but you've referred to the Red to Dead Sea solution a couple of times. Maybe you can describe that a little bit, what the project entailed and what happened.
[00:48:30] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: The Red to Dead, it was the gift from the beginning when we have the peace treaty, we sign. It was the gift off the peace treaty. It was the fulfillment off a promise of prosperity to the three countries that participating. We know from the beginning, Bridget. We know from the beginning it is very expensive in Jordan.
The source of the Red Sea on the need. It is in the north. It's not the cost. Only the cost of the salinity water. It is the transport as well. But we know from the beginning we started with red to that way. Contracted the World Bank. Because it's capability off mobilizing fund because we know we cannot do it by ourselves, especially Palestine and Jordan, Israel, the rich country, and then they have the technology.
And for us, we need the money and with the prosperity people, they will be happy and they will see what the fruits of the beast. So we started with this. And we have the World Bank, they managed to obtain a fund that is barely enough for their cost, very expensive, and to finance those who did the feasibility study.
And once the feasibility is, during that time, I was first in the Royal Court. They came to us, Montgomery Watson, it is, and they are very good. They came to us. They said listen, if you will still waiting for others to bring you money to have, let's think about doing ourselves.
So after read to that, we're doing, we stop at the study, keep on doing this study long time. And in Jordan. We need the water. Yeah, and it is not luxurious things. So when I was in the royal court at that time in the economic department, we received this Montgomery and they said, the problem is financing.
So we have to think of a new approach. The new approach is we do, we have the water and we improve economics. Like we have development. And from Amman to Aqaba. These are there. Nobody lives there. So the idea is, and we will have the pipeline from Aqaba to Amman. So the idea is to have like five countries, five cities from airport to Aqaba.
And this will, by improving the economy, then they pay tax. The government will be able to afford having this expensive. So the idea is not to have one consortium. This was the idea. To have one consortium, they do development and they, at the same time, they do the water business and from what they benefit economically, it will cost subsidize the tariff and we will end up with affordable water.
So this is the other thing, because we realize nobody will help us. We signed the peace treaty. Peace, they left us alone. So everyone think of his own. For us, we don't have the right technology. We don't have any. We are not like. And this is the same thing with Palestine, with Israel. They spend in desalination.
They own the technology. They have the money. They are at the Mediterranean where the water is much better than Red Sea. No problem of a transport. Now it cost them little. They invest in renewable. They invest in it. They can, they have. And now they produce more than what they need and they export the 250 Mm3, which is extra of their nets.
But for us at that time, we realized this. So we listen to them and we have this idea. And the idea is The difference in the price of water, we can announce this is a national, and we have to think how to make it to finance this project from our own, because we realize nobody will help us. So we have, we even draft a special law for this, where we can reallocate some of luxury taxes and fees, like for cigarettes, like for registering the land, but we'll directly go to this, and we I asked even at that time, the Secretary General for Water Authority, the cost of water that you can afford.
Even this number was not there. So we used to have the DC project, and we considered this. The difference should come from these fees. Potassium, we have this, study because part of it was saving the Dead Sea at the same time. So, 40 percent of the Dead Sea, the, the water, it is used or lost because of the potassium from Jordanian and Israeli companies.
But the idea is to start think how we can generate funds, not from the pocket of poor Jordanians. It is from luxury things. And then we proceed. We announced and even I came to Colorado. We opened. It was then we realized in know the idea of having one person for development and they didn't catch it.
But then we decided we have one for the water system and one for development. We came to Colorado, we open, it was Sinohydro, the Chinese company for water and or Orascom. It is Egyptian developer to have like to build the five cities. We've almost there, and we're about to sign, then I don't know what happens.
We changed the minister, the new minister. He canceled this. I was secretary general. I don't know what is the real reason. Then they said, OK, we have first to finish the feasibility study, then I said it feasibility study, I called so that the Dr. Shaddad Al Attilli the chair of the Palestinian delegation and Uri Shani, the chair of the Israeli.
I invited them to the Dead Sea, put them together because the idea is co party reporting something with the Palestinian and the Israelis. So I put them in one room, close the door. You have to sit and come back, say, finish the study. We have to finish this study. We need the water. And when we sign a letter, sent to the World Bank, they were surprised, and now we can start the implementation.
Then, then at that time, I finished there, left the ministry. Then we have, after this, they left us alone. We need money because the project is not finished. Jordan, and it's very expensive, but this because Montgomery Watson, we managed to have this idea of low, but this one, we back to the old Red to Dead, then after that, we have this bilateral.
I don't know if you heard about it. It's like water. It's what they came with a new idea, but the Palestinian, they will give them amount of money. But again, it was not there for the Palestinian. You have to agree On the point or the point where you take this water because to transport it inside the Palestinian Authority, it is to cost you for where you receive this water and the cost of water, which is this lack from this bilateral agreement.
So the Palestinian as if they are out. It's only bilateral. But again, this is a water swap. We're talking about 30 million m3, which is nothing with our need where you have a treatment desalination plant in Aqaba. You give the water to the Israelis and they give us in the high in the northern part. But we're talking about 30 mcm, which is nothing.
Then we have the problem of the embassy. I don't know if you had and they cancel this. But this one ought to cancel. Now, Jordan, they realize, and now we have this national, they call it national carrier. They map the idea, but with this national carrier, there is no saving the Dead Sea. Now they end up with one company, which is a French, they are negotiating the price.
I'm not part of the committee that they are negotiating, but I'm sure it is very expensive and without having a grant, some money to help, it will be very expensive. Then in between, we heard about this, the, the Prosperity blue and the green, what happens in the COP 27 where they agree on a memorandum of understanding, something like this, to do a feasibility study.
The blue prosperity and the green prosperity where they have the emirates, they will establish solar electricity. They produce it from solar with the storage and all the electricity or the energy will go to Israel and the other one. This is two project intellect. I was not involved, so I don't know if this will affect the tariff.
I'm not. I was not part of it. I don't know if using the Jordan lands to produce solar will help having special price of water. I'm not there. I, I don't think so. The idea and all the solar will go directly to Israel and then we will receive only 200, I think, mcm (million m3), which is not enough for us from, and it depends on the feasibility.
The plan was in COP 28 to sign an official agreement, but because of what happens in Gaza, The bad thing that's very, it's very difficult. So the public, they refused and they are against this agreement and the government of Jordan, they decided to suspend. Now for me, if I am, if I was the decision maker, for me, we already have a national carrier, right?
It is already there. And we have consortia at that time, six or seven. Now we end up only with the French, but before that, it was like five. We have already a project announced and it's almost there. What we lack is like 54 percent of the cost of this project, the national carrier, Jordanian national carrier.
It is the electricity or because we need to desalinate and pump to the, for me, rather than having only 200 MCM from Israel and God knows how it will be, if it is expensive or not, because they will study the feasibility. I've already have. I don't mind having the UAE to have this electricity plants. I need electricity.
Palestine needs. Israel, I don't mind who, what my need is energy, not water. Because I've already have a project, where all the studies, all the designs, all the layout, the land is there. If I manage to have a cheap source of energy. And because they are using Amman, which is the best in the world, where you can produce solar energy and might learn if they take him on all of it to Israel, we end up with no potential for green energy, right? So for me, if I involved in this, I don't need water. Let everybody take energy. I don't mind. Let's UAE make this plans, give Jordan for this project. And it's not maybe it's what it's our right. to have subsidized or cheap if it's not free because they are using our solar, our land, and we will not have any potential for a green water.
If it was like this, then it will be a successful, it will be a win. Right. But what I have to only 200 MCM lose all my green potential on Jordan because of mine. If it's gone, what is there then? You can, I can go to everyone. I can go to the people in that street convinced if you have a bankable deal. Right?
Right. When you can go directly, you will be brave to defend it. Right. But, but what hell you see for this is one of the things. It's suspended because, and not. Because of first, what happens in Gaza, they close the water, the Palestinian and the other, even with the, we will not talk about politics, but it is a good lesson for us for to be secure.
It is security. It's not only because of Israel. Look, it's from climate change. Right. And shortage of water. We are in the Middle East. The future of Middle East is shortage of water, maybe we buy no water from Israel. We will reach a time where what they have is barely enough for them. Right. It's about enemy, not enemy.
They will control us. It is a weapon. Forget about these things. Let's say we all live peacefully and no problem. Right. Yeah. Maybe because of the climate change. They would, what they produce will be barely enough affordable. They'll stop. So it's better to, but that's why they decided now to have this national career.
It is understudying. We hope that they will reach a deal with the French, but we need in, we need water. We need desalination. It's not only desalination, Bridget. We also studying deep aquifers. We have to see the deep aquifers, the difference. Maybe it is cheaper. I don't know. It depends on where is the water, the temperature.
Yeah. And you have to study each aquifer. And again, you can have the water with the show where the shortage is. So you don't we, we all will assess. Right. The potential that we have. And, but again, water security is important. Right. Life food security. Yeah. When we have this Ukraine, when COVID, the people, they keep their, some, something that should be secured, like food, security, energy, and water. Water is very important. Yes.
[01:02:47] Bridget Scanlon: Well, I thank you so much for your time today. I think we've covered a lot of ground. Really appreciate your educating us on the Red to Dead Sea project, which was to desalinate water from the Red Sea and then to put the concentrate from the desalination into the Dead Sea because the Dead Sea has been declining at about a meter a year, maybe declined by 30 to 40 percent over the past several decades. So it was a nice idea and you had good program with Montgomery Watson and glad about that.
So the Prosperity Initiative was the part of the Abraham Accord, right? And so that was UAE to develop solar energy in Jordan. And 600 megawatts of solar energy and then you would give that to Israel and then in return, then you would get desalinated seawater.
And you mentioned 200 MCM, I've seen 200 or 400 MCM. Yeah. And you use about a thousand MCM at this point, a thousand million cubic meters a year. So that wouldn't have been a big help. And then you mentioned the importance of water and energy security. And then the national water carrier project, I guess that's about 300 million cubic meters of desalinated drinking water annually, according to the water ministry, so that, that would really help.
And so I think what you're describing Maysoon really emphasizes the linkages between water, energy and food. Having security in these areas is extremely important, especially at these times, seeing lessons from many different areas about conflict and stuff. So having security is extremely important.
And so we're running out of time, but I'll give you five more minutes to describe it with funds. Okay.
[01:04:34] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: We are from Blue Peace, the idea when we talk about peace, because people, they always talk of there will be a war for water. But the peace here, rather than saying there will be a war for water, we are trying to use water to build peace.
But this is the idea of peace. The idea of this is to create, we focus on, create a generation of a good generation to be very well equipped with the knowledge, with the skills, and to look at water as from cooperation. It is tool for cooperation, tool for peace, not fight. We started this project, the idea is to put people sit together.
So it is two pillars. One is dialogue, where we people sit together to gain trust, to exchange knowledge and expertise and to learn. It's not only from us. We visited the Rhine River, Senegal River, to see how people, they manage a shared water transboundary. They call it people in the upstream, they call it a transboundary.
And also it is accompanied with research and education, because we need to have a joint research. A joint project. First of all, that is very it's a crucial thing. But by having this by having a joint research joint education, then we will have a joint data where everybody will have it. This is the thing we started with the theme.
So theme is policy and dialogue. Keep people sit together. We are growing from consultant. Now it is a regional mechanism. No consultant. Now we have somebody from the government. We are growing at the center pillar where we sit and learn. visited, we visited Spain, Portugal, see how they manage their water in a good intention.
They have a real cooperation. And again, also research started with energy, with the efficiency in agriculture because like you said, agriculture, they use, so, so this is the area we should invest. Now for phase two, we go beyond water. Like you said, it is the nexus. We are not talking only about water. For the, the education research in phase two, it is about the nexus where we study what we're having nexus practices, we will create a pool of expert practitioners where we can learn from them and also look for the future is where we invest in the young. We have a youth fellowship. Each one from each country. We are six countries. We are Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey and now Syria and Iran at observer level.
But because they served water, we need them. So we have a young people represented from each one. We train them about international water law, about water policy. We need a generation young generation who believe in cooperation and water diplomacy and sitting together rather than there will be a war, we have to fight for this is the thing.
And also we focus on media. It is important to have a media if you, whatever you do, if you don't have a media with you and we invest also in young journalists. Nobody will hear about what you are doing. So we have a media with us. The idea of cooperation, it is service of corporation. We are getting bigger and bigger with more peace, with more people sit together.
So this is the thing that we are. I'm happy with this week. We are a graduate, the first cohort of those. They together write a joint proposal on WEFE nexus that can be translated into pilot project. We are going to make this pilot in Iraq, but for the next one, we'll see what country it suits and we welcome more people to come and to learn this peer to peer wherever there is a shared water.
I am there because I do believe in cooperation, diplomacy rather than war. to learn from each other for this is also very important.
[01:08:40] Bridget Scanlon: Well, thank you so much. That sounds marvelous. And I really enjoyed visiting with you in California and learned a lot from our discussions and have been doing some homework in the meantime.
So thank you for educating me and for all of our listeners. And I wish you the best with this Blue Peace in the Middle East. I think the median age of people in Jordan is like 22 or something. So, so you have a lot of youth. And so, and you mentioned the nexus aspect. So water, energy, food, environment, I think is the component.
So, Maysoon Al Zoubi be is the program manager at the currently for the Food and Agriculture Organization Green Climate Fund adaptation component of that program. And it's about a 30 million program in Jordan. Thank you so much, Maysoon for sharing ideas.
[01:09:31] Maysoon Al-Zoubi: And thank you for giving me this opportunity.
