[00:00:00] Bridget Scanlon: Welcome to the Water Resources Podcast. I'm Bridget Scanlon and in this podcast we discuss water challenges with leading experts. And today I'm pleased to welcome Karen Villholth, who is the Director of the Water Cycle Innovation, a unique consultancy specializing in global water issues. Karen has also worked for the International Water Management Institute over the past two decades and was stationed in South Africa for the past decade.
Karen, can you describe a little bit about the water cycle innovation consultancy that you have developed and what your thoughts are and what you hope to accomplish with it? And also, I'd be interested to know how you selected the title for the consultancy.
[00:00:47] Karen Villholth: Thank you very much and thanks for the invitation. It's great to be part of this podcast. Yeah. So water cycle innovation, I think points to how we can innovate in the water business, both in terms of technology, but also you know, much more wider in terms of, management, in terms of knowledge. So it's innovation in so many different contexts. And then the water cycle points to the fact that we need to bring in surface water, groundwater, and all the other factors. And I think that's actually the challenge that we are facing today. So I thought the name actually encompasses quite a lot of the challenges that we are facing.
[00:01:30] Bridget Scanlon: So Karen and I first met in the early two thousands when I visited Denmark, and she was working for the Danish Geological Survey at that time, and then we also met at a conference in Morocco. So we've known each other for many years. I was very impressed with the GRIPP program that you established Karen in 2016, Groundwater Solutions Initiative for Policy and Practice, and I really like your emphasis on solutions. And I think that's had great examples from all over the world, Australia, US, Africa, many regions showing what is possible. Maybe you can describe that program a little bit.
[00:02:10] Karen Villholth: Yeah, so I guess the GRIPP sort of sprung out of this intention to bring groundwater more to the front of water dialogue. First of all, and as you mentioned to highlight the need to come up with solutions because oftentimes groundwater is seen as the child that we are facing in water management. And so people might shy away from it cause it's just simply too complicated, and difficult to deal with because we don't see it. It's underground and you need this special education almost to be able to deal with it. So somehow there's this need to first of all, make groundwater more interesting and appealing for people to work with, and also to yeah, to increase the interest, generally speaking in terms of, finding solutions that apply also to groundwater and not to see it as a problem. And I think we achieved quite a bit in that space, building on solid evidence and research to come up with technical and more sort of what's the governance side of things? How to deal with groundwater. And we've seen throughout the podcast how broad the issues are. And so it’s a non-real issue. It's a long haul to address these issues and groundwater has traditionally not been dealt with to the same extent as surface water. So we are trying to catch up, so to speak, and also use hydrology and all the signs, all the good signs that are out there because it is available, it's maybe not really sometimes applied very much, in great situations and especially in developing countries. So the focus was very much on developing countries and how can we advance the knowledge and the tools in that context.
[00:04:02] Bridget Scanlon: And you recently attended the United Nations World Water Conference in New York, and the United Nations had a mantra for this past year, groundwater making the invisible visible, which is what you've just been talking about.
Can you describe a little bit what the conference was like and how you think it advanced to groundwater and what we can look forward to in the future? It was about 50 years before we had the previous water conference in the UN. So this was a very big event, and I think some of the discussion I heard about was too much water, too little water, too dirty, and trying to manage these extremes. So I would like to hear your thoughts and what you learned from the conference and what you thought about it.
[00:04:46] Karen Villholth: Yes. Well, first of all, as you say, it's been almost years since the first UN conference in 1977 in Mar del Plata, Argentina, and so everybody concurred that this was very timely, which may be late, but nevertheless, very timely. I think the impetus for this conference was climate change. I think we are all realizing how the water system is being stressed, through climate change and the fact that we need to adapt through the water cycle and water management basically to address all these climate challenges. But I think that's kind of a very big impetus for bringing groundwater over the water too, so much to the floor. And then also, realizing that water is such a part of achieving the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), which, we are sort of reaching, we have to comply by 2030 and we are far behind, and water is one of the challenges. It's coming up in the world. Water economic, the World Economic Forum and so on. It's one of the major global challenges.
And so all of this is sort of coming together as really one of the challenges that we have to face globally. We may have advanced over the 50 years in some respects, but in other respects, we are still behind. And so there's this kind of urgency, I think, towards addressing water issues and highlighting the groundwater as a special case.
I mean, you mentioned last year was the the year of groundwater because the UN system was putting specific focus on that as part of the UN world Water Day and the UN Development report, which focused specifically on unground water. And then towards the year, the year there was this groundwater summit also led by by the UN system. And so you can say in a way, we were trying to really speed up is focus on groundwater and then making it culminate at the World Water or the UN Water Conference in March this year. And so I think we managed to do that. There was quite a lot of attention to groundwater at meeting some very high level meetings. Processions where we had high representation of, of countries and commitments being expressed related to groundwater. And also, follow up that commitment. A more or less formal commitment to take this forward in terms of UN platform around the groundwater. More focused on groundwater, monitoring, data sharing and monitoring and also some kind of focus on transboundary aquifers and transboundary cooperation is kind of a leverage to emphasize and to yeah, to encourage countries to come forward with the groundwater management and also of course, cause a lot of these resources are shared and so it's very important.
But, but highlighting the transboundary aspect of resources might highlight the importance and think countries forward, to pitch, basically to be the good student in the class and soS on. So I think that's, that's one of the little kinda ways that we can take, groundwater forward. And then of course there were a lot of other commitments.
I think there were more than 700 commitments coming out of the conference. And I think there were somebody, the World Resources Institute, a preliminary assessment saying that some of these could be what they call game changing. They were looking for these are what they called game changers that could actually have a really impact. And so I'm not sure the groundwater will, but it should really have a, place in this whole set of commitments. I think there were also about 300 billion that was like leveraged as or committed as part of of these commitments. So you can say this was kind of a milestone towards achieving the SDGs.
Then we have to see exactly how this ends out and how it also fits into the kind of recording on the STDs and so on, because water is crossing and so we need to really, make that effort and also be clear on where are the challenges and where are we falling short and all of that.
[00:09:03] Bridget Scanlon: Right. And I like your emphasis on the UN sustainable development goals, the SDGs and the importance of water. And you indicated that this was developing approaches to adapt to climate change. Often times when people consider climate change impacts and water they emphasize surface water and rivers drying up or reservoirs depleting like the Colorado, the huge reservoirs in the Colorado River Basin. But, they don't really think about groundwater. But oftentimes during these times of water scarcity or drought, we then shift to using groundwater and we need to understand it better in order to manage it more sustain. So I really love that, the title of your consultancy is Water Cycle Innovation. So you are incorporating surface water and groundwater, and you're not siloed into one of those, and you are acknowledging the linkages between the two. And do you think that the community is starting to expand and not just have groundwater, hydrogeologists and surface water people and trying to integrate more and understanding how these are linked? Because we need to know that to manage both of them.
[00:10:14] Karen Villholth: No, you're certainly right. I think you are also right in saying that there's been some siloing, and I think it's kind of a natural progression. Cause we started out focusing on surface water, then groundwater became more, more important. And so it has, come to the fore as well.
Now I think we are at that stage where we really need to integrate to and see where we can take advantage of, doing that. Because there are some options there. And could be an official rather than looking at these resources in isolation. And so that's where I think we can break down, going forward.
And I think there are some, some pointers that are pointing in that direction. Again, talking about sort of the trans boundary context. So the un ECE, the Economic Commission for Europe, working very much on, the legal side of operation and so on, and coming up with guidelines in terms of how to operate around, water resources or shared water resources.
I think round water side of things is actually getting more attention and getting into the guidelines so that they become more coherent. And I think that's really much appreciated and really needed. So yeah, there are some, some signs these things are picking up and I think this comes naturally also, like I think you wanted also to talk about like Cape Town, incidents of and so on.
And I think it was such a good illustration of how you cannot neglect one or the other, right? And only through this joint management and joint development of resources, both kind of a solution in that case. So it just goes to show that this cannot be neglected.
[00:11:54] Bridget Scanlon: Right, right. And, sitting in South Africa, what we think of that comes to mind is Cape Town Day zero. That's what, when they think about water issues, they were almost totally reliant on surface water reservoirs during that time and then started to develop groundwater resources when they were really, when the drought was looming and they were running out of water. And so normally when we think of how we manage water, we can reduce demand And so they did that by reducing allocations to irrigation and then increased supplies. And so looking at developing groundwater to add to the surface water supplies, and then storing water. Traditionally, we just think of surface water reservoirs. But now more and more we are thinking of using aquifers, ground aquifers to store water.
And so I think there was an example, the Atlantis Water Supply Scheme that you were discussing recently that's being developed to store surface water in aquifers then for use during dry period. Maybe you can describe that a little bit.
[00:13:01] Karen Villholth: Yes, it's called the Atlantis, but never mind. I think, Cape Town is a good example of how they have advanced over quite a short time in terms of getting to grips with potential water or groundwater resources and the whole hydrological system and so on, where they can potentially develop more ground water.
And as you say, also replenish it so that it doesn't sufficient in the long term. And I think as far as I understand, there are like three strands to that. And the Atlantis is like one of them. It's a managed, equitably charged scheme in the north of Cape Town. And so they're actually able to transfer water from that scheme in times of excess, and that scheme also is based on wastewater.
So it has this kind of a stable supply treated wastewater and treated stormwater and so on. And so they can take it from the aquifer once it's recharged. They have well fields there they can pump it from and then use it either locally or in Cape Town.
Similarly, they have looked at Cape Flat's aquifer, which is just, more or less in the city or little outskirts towards the Cape Town. So they're looking at the resources there to pump, have a well field, but also to replenish through treated waste water. This is in progress. It's not totally up and running, but they're doing investigations and the modeling and and so on. And the primary issue with that aquifer is that in places, quite polluted, especially from nitrates and so on. Because it's a local area with a lot of farming happening. And maybe also pollution from other sources from the urban area and so on. So, so, so that's one issue they have to look at, the treatment of both the water that they pumped, also the water that they entered the ground. And secondly, there's also a wetland associated with the Cape Flats, or there was obviously, so they don't want to interfere too much with that, and they actually would prefer to rehabilitate through this. All kind of, you know, be thinking of the water system in that area. So that's the second part.
And then they also derive water now from the, from the Table Mountain Aquifer System, which is a quite complex system. Some of them are very deep and so on, but that's, that's kind of the third groundwater source that they're looking at. So they have really brought this on board in a very short time. And they're advancing quite rapidly, I would say.
[00:15:32] Bridget Scanlon: I think that is fascinating. And when you mentioned, using treated wastewater as the source to store it underground, I mean that's a sort of a drought proof source of water. And so a climate smart adaptation strategy and, that will increase as the population increases. So that is a really nice example of adapting to these extremes and managing them. I can remember trying to climb Table Mountain and I, because my sister had climbed it before, I thought, oh, well it must be easy if she did it. But there are like 30 different routes and I was petrified.
[00:16:11] Karen Villholth: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:16] Bridget Scanlon: so, so you've also done quite a bit of work in the Limpopo Basin and, I've seen some reports where they describe the Limpopo Basin as the Garden of South Africa, where they grow lots of fruits and vegetables and stuff, and there was, an International Water Management Institute report on irrigation or potential for irrigation. And also other people in the past, and I know you are now looking at, groundwater level monitoring data, and I think we can think of this monitoring is sort of looking at your bank balance, your bank account, and if it stays flat, then you're okay. Maybe you don't need to know how much you're depositing or how much you're withdrawing, as long as it's staying flat.
But then if you are seeing declines, you need to understand what is going on. So maybe you can describe a little bit about the aquifers in the Limpopo, the alluvial aquifers and the regolith aquifers on top of the basement. And then what you think of how it's being developed or is it being over exploited or what are you learning from these hydrographs or water level monitoring data?
[00:17:25] Karen Villholth: Yes. This is a very exciting and interesting area. So we are talking about the Limpopo, which is more the northwest of South Africa, sort of going, it's part of the Limpopo basin goes into Zimbabwe and Mozambique as well and Botswana as well. There's a lot of exploitation of groundwater on the South African side.
And it's mostly being used for, or the major share is being used for irrigated agriculture, also, of course for urban use and so on. So it's quite heavily exploited and also surface water is in some places being depleted or it's not where you need it. And so, they have to transport it over long distances and so on. So for those reasons, groundwater really comes in as the resource basically in many places. maybe I should correct you a little bit because it sounds like it's a green garden and it's really not in places. It's quite intensively farmed through pivot irrigation and you can see the areas of round circles. You can see it from the sky and so on. And in some areas it can be quite intense, but it's maybe if you look at it across the whole area, it's maybe only 5% o of areas that are really intensely irrigated. And that's simply because there's not enough water. Rainfall is not that high and so on. Groundwater is sort of in a fragile balance and, if it doesn't rain, seriously for a number of years, groundwater levels go down. and farmers are quite, concerned actually. And they've seen periods where groundwater have just kept on decreasing for decades. And you can imagine as a farmer you would be concerned, right?
But what is often seen, and we see that in the hydrographs is that the groundwater then picks up again, and that's due to extreme events that oftentimes are associated with these ENSO events. We can come back to that. Basically, they sort of recover the bank count as you, as you mentioned, and then the situation is fine again for maybe another 10 years, and maybe if you have just a couple of those events, You can fill up your system.
And so it’s kind of, it's a fragile system because you can actually over 10 years get down to a level where you almost reach the bottom or you get into salty water. So it is a, a wonderful system, but so far it seems to have been continuously working over the last about 60 years.
[00:19:52] Bridget Scanlon: Yeah. And I know, I look at Google Earth and I look at where we have these irrigation circles, from pivot irrigation and stuff. And sometimes oftentimes it's adjacent to the rivers. So the Orange River or, you mentioned, some other, rivers like the Okavango so, so a lot of that, pump is adjacent to the river in these alluvial aquifers, which may be more productive, but then you need to consider the linkage with the surface water, and maybe they're capturing surface water and the river flow then is becoming more ephemeral.
Do you think that's happening in different regions? do you see a lot of groundwater wells being drilled in river valleys and trying to take advantage of capturing surface water?
[00:20:37] Karen Villholth: It’s definitely a trend and it's a natural one because as surface water is being exploited, more and more diverted to different purposes and so on upstream, for instance, in Botswana, where there's cities, like capital, and of course it's less in the river downstream, and so.
People naturally, turn to groundwater and I think we are, there's a quite general knowledge that there'll be more prolific groundwater, close to the rivers and that's where the farmers pump. And also, and that I should also mention, bcause we are talking about these in aquifers and they also like, Interspersed with, dykes and so on. And these, structures also influence quite a bit where the storage is, where your bank account is, and the farmers also know that upstream of these dykes you have more water and you also have sometimes more fracturing because when the dike comes up, there's some cracking of the crystalline systems. And so yeah, farmers know where, where to keep the water, basically. Very, fascinating. But as you rightly say it has the negative impact on river flows. So we talk about river depletion, right? Which is sort of, in this case, partially indirect from pumping of groundwater and it’s critical cause it's not really regulated in many cases.
So, so farmers and so on get by with, with pumping groundwater and they have, they can have good businesses, from the agriculture in those areas. And it's important for the food production. So it's not an easy solution. There's no easy solution to that because there is a need for good production, but it has some, compromises in terms of environmental flows and, downstream areas with growth and all of these ecological impacts, quite significant.
[00:22:30] Bridget Scanlon: Right. And you mentioned an important point then is the linkage between water and food production and the sustainable development goals. there's one that emphasizes water and then there's other on food production, but these are tightly linked. Yes. And a lot of the farmers, I guess in South Africa, are small holder farmers and it's difficult for them to make a living or, or to make the food supply more sustainable.
Can you describe a little bit about that connection and what they grow and if they can adapt their crops to the changing climate or things like that?
[00:23:07] Karen Villholth: Yeah, no, Africa, the African continent is very unique in many ways, and also it is probably worse hit by climate change than many places.
So they're struggling. And water again, is a big component of that. And the water, the food supply systems are quite agile also with climate change. And so yeah, you have to look at what are the conditions at present and the challenges and how can it be addressed, And many people say, yeah, we have to drill more groundwater because the farmers need it.
And I totally agree that there's probably enough groundwater in SubSaharan Africa to provide water for smallholder farmers on a small scale, to supply water for their small production. And that could kind of provide enough food at local level, oftentimes population growth, urban urbanization, and so on.
This small demand for food and so we need to increase production than what can be. At local level, and also the local farmers might not be able to supply the supply chain, because of infrastructure gaps and because the products are maybe not enough to sell in the supermarkets and they don't necessarily have enough inputs, to have skills and again, access to water might be a problem so they don't have a consistent production and so on. There are lots of issues with a smallholder of farmers in itself then talking about, the supply needs in a port context, and there's a need to step up the yields and the production and that's where Africa is also suffering in that regard. So we were talking about that yesterday in terms of subsidized food that is being actually exported to Africa because it's cheaper to produce it in Europe and other places. And so kind of outcompeting local production in Africa. Also the emphasis on stable crops in the north like maize and rice and wheat and so on, which might not be the stable crops originally in the African context where they have sort of natural conditions to survive and you can better buy with rainfed or supplemental irrigation and so on. So, these crops are maybe being pushed out a little bit, though other crops that are coming in and so on. So there's several. Challenges in the African context.
We have land grabbing, water grabbing. We have export of virtual water from Africa, which sounds crazy because many of these places are semiarid. Actually, that's happening as well. High value horticulture crops are going out of countries, which could have been used for, these lands could have been used for growing food for the local population.
So you see that it’s not just about water, it's not just about producing, but there's a lot of new political issues involved in, in the food production in Africa. It's a very intricate challenge, I would say.
[00:26:22] Bridget Scanlon: And you mentioned before they might be better off growing crops that are more adapted to the conditions. They're like cassava or tef or, or things like that. But those are being pushed out because of the popularity of corn or wheat or maize. Or some of these other crops. So maybe if they could encourage growth of those types of crops, maybe they would be better adapted. But also, we talk about water and food production, but fertilizer use and availability is another important component in increasing yield. And of course the energy issues that we've been experiencing the last few years doesn't do anything to help with that.
[00:27:03] Karen Villholth: Yeah. So all the inputs are, we are lacking in many cases because of the lack of funds and lack of availability and so on, and as you say, yeah, that's, It's a critical aspect of it as well.
[00:27:16] Bridget Scanlon: And you mentioned when you were talking about your hydrographs in the Limpopo system, how you had decadal changes, increases and decreases. And then it was these periodic heavy, intense events that replenish the system and then that might hold for a number of years, but gradually be depleted. So I know you have published in the past about the impacts of El Nino Southern Oscillation and the differences between Southern Africa and Eastern Africa. Maybe you can describe that a little bit.
[00:27:48] Karen Villholth: Yeah, so we did some interesting work together with Taylor and other people in these effects of different climate systems and tried to look at South Africa and the Limpopo in particular, and then areas just south of equator, like in Tanzania.
And we saw almost opposites, you know, so that at the same time you could have a drought in South Africa, but you would have, a flood or a flooding, extreme event in terms of rain in Tanzania. And so it can be explained as you say, these kind of oscillation phenomena. And, it is quite, yeah, it, it's not, like a hundred percent prediction that we can make.
There's definitely some correlation and, yeah, we've seen very many five years in South Africa over the last decade, but it seems to have now changed to a more wet period. And, there seems to be a correlation with the wet period and La Nina here and the opposite in that region. It's quite interesting.
And then of course, the next thinking is, and we use that, for the management. Because when we have the wet periods, we should actually, as you say, try to spread more water underground, in the access to alleviate drought that can follow up period. And I don't think it has been done, but as the scope, I would say,
[00:29:12] Bridget Scanlon: Right, right. And it's fascinating that dipole between East Africa and South Africa. So, the last several years, east Africa has been suffering from severe drought and concerns about famine and,the famine early warning system network, had predicted those droughts. So they missed about five of the rainy seasons. And finally, that was linked to La Nina. But at the same time in Southern Africa you were getting a lot of rain and so, but I mean, is even the flooding then can be problematic in terms of water and food production. So it's trying to manage these extremes. And I think you, when you talked about the Atlantis scheme, if you can capture some of that excess water and store it underground, then that would give you a head start for the year next drought, and you see it in your hydrographs and these cycles of wet and dry periods that come up every, at least every decade.
And I, I know the Famine Early Warning System, they were able to predict with six months lead time, they would, miss the rainy seasons. And then they were able to get the agencies to come together and to provide funding then so they would avoid famine in those regions. So that was very helpful.
[00:30:28] Karen Villholth: There's definitely more scope for that, I would say. I know the farmers, like in the Limpoop, they are kind of naturally adapting, by putting in dams in the river pits and so they can hold back water when it flows or they divert the water into their farm ponds and so on. So they definitely are already, doing something.
If you could predict it more, it would be better. Yeah.
[00:30:53] Bridget Scanlon: Right. And you have worked with the World Bank and USAID and many other groups in the past, and it seems that, maybe these agencies are considering groundwater more in their programs. And I know I was reading about the World Bank, developing, putting money in the Horn of Africa for groundwater, for resilience in that region.
Are you aware of more of that shift in the World Bank towards considering more groundwater?
[00:31:22] Karen Villholth: Yes, and I agree with you. There's this kind of trend that larger organizations are also taking on board, ground water, and I think it's really great. There's a tendency to invest more in groundwater, which is great, and especially for Africa, where I think it's such a need for it.
World Bank has already invested quite a bit in the Southern Africa region. With the International Groundwater Management Institute. It's been there for more than five years and it's been quite successful in kind of in the whole SADC (Southern African Development Community) meeting. The SADC is the Southern Africa countries together in terms of developing knowledge and tools and data platforms and sharing mechanisms and yeah, basically having conferences and so on to share information and also been implementing a specific, like, water infrastructure in areas where they didn't have any water supply.
So this has been quite a success and it’s continuing with funds from the World Bank and others, and I think that's a very good example. They're trying to maybe, replicate that in the Horn of Africa. This might be early days. Think with some of the investment that you mentioned, it might go that direction, but it some, some of these things might take years and I think, the SADC already had lot of cooperation on other funds and so it was easier to also bring the groundwater in. Right? Whereas maybe in the Horn of Africa it's gonna take a little longer. But definitely there's a need for it and there's an interest. And with these projects that you mentioned, some of these things will be right,
[00:33:04] Bridget Scanlon: Right. So the Horn of Africa, that would extend across Kenya, Ethiopia, and Somalia and maybe they can learn from South African programs and they're trying to develop, groundwater resources there. And I guess one of the things that is missing is our understanding of these aquifer systems.
I mean, you have learned a lot in the limpopo, system and. From the groundwater hydrographs and the surface water groundwater linkages. But we really need a lot more knowledge of how these systems work because if you want to manage them appropriately, we need to understand their dynamics and what we can and cannot do with them.
And,how best to, to manage them and optimize them within the context of these extreme, climate conditions.
[00:33:53] Karen Villholth: Yes, very true. And as you say, the extremes are becoming challenging because in both ends you have problems. And so we need to really manage those extremes, especially in these, arid, semi arid areas.
And we can both be structured, and as you say, understand the dynamics, understanding the climate impacts and the future aspects and how to deal with that. Something that we are working on as well, not just from hydrologic, but also from hydrodynamic modeling and so on, these kind of processes.
And as you said, this leakage of rivers to the groundwater and all of that. Ite shows that. Maybe most of the recharge is actually coming from the rivers, which is maybe not what we expected. Cause groundwater is low and they might be disconnected from the rivers, then a lot of it will disappear if there's no like, ceiling of the, of river and so on.
So that's, that's what we are starting to see and we want to understand further how, how to, yeah, to understand that.
[00:34:59] Bridget Scanlon: So, so you've spent the last 10 years I understand, in South Africa, and you raised you children there and everything. Must have been an interesting time and now you are heading back to Denmark.
And, when I think of Denmark, of course, I think of out of Africa and Isaac Dinesin and. At those sorts of things, but also the Grundfos Foundation is investing quite a bit in Africa and, data and geophysics and others. And so maybe you can describe a little bit about, what it was like to live in South Africa over the past decade and now that you are looking forward to returning to Denmark.
[00:35:40] Karen Villholth: Yeah, it's been a great adventure. I've learned a lot, which I wouldn't have missed. because I think you gain so much from living in a different culture and understanding how people are, interacting and what is, what is what is important to them, right? And come in with a bit of blank eyes, but then you start understanding everything.
And I really appreciated this opportunity and then having this professional entry point of water I think has been amazing and groundwater in particular. Groundwater is so important. For Denmark, we use a hundred percent groundwater. So my original thinking was that it's needed, outside of Denmark, we have a lot of experts in Denmark, but there's not many experts outside.
And so if I could share some of. the skills that I had, I, I thought that was worthwhile. And I really think that interaction with a lot of people, not only in South Africa has been tremendous. And I wouldn't have missed it for anything.
[00:36:40] Bridget Scanlon: Yeah, right. I mean, sometimes, we think we can do a lot of desktop type of analysis and stuff, but you just don't get the feel for what the critical issues are. And until you go into the field and you see what's happening, are you ex. Experience these wet and dry cycles, or you see what the limited irrigation or the crop production. There's nothing to replace that experience. So I admire your willingness to do that and your courage. And everything. And yeah.
[00:37:10] Karen Villholth: I think also it is to understand the mindset and how people think is it's really an eye-opener. You start to understand why do they not want to share data, and why are the farmers a bit hesitant or why, what? Will make some of these, stale things, how can we move?
And you cannot, you cannot, unless you speak to people, unless you're out there and anticipating in meetings where you get to some courage point and you start understanding, okay, this, this is where the crux of the matter is, That's, that's where you really, learn, I think. And also by building those relationships, maybe you can actually influence a little bit.
I don't think that it's easy and one person can do it. At least it needs, you need these partnerships and so on to really move anything forward and build the trust. And then people might, with, with long-term engagement, you'll be able to see some movement.
[00:38:06] Bridget Scanlon: Right. And I mean, I really admire you. Your formal training is engineering. Yes. But then you have really expanded and you acknowledge the importance of governance and social behavior, in order to make things happen. And I think that's huge because oftentimes as scientists and stuff, we think it's just a technical issue but of more often it is a socioeconomic issue or a governance issue or things like that. So I admire that you incorporate all of these different fields. And, so what are your thoughts? I mean, your outlook for the future, I mean, with the water cycle innovation consultancy and stuff, do you think we will be able to develop climate smart adaptive water management to address the challenges in the future or, What are your thoughts?
[00:38:58] Karen Villholth: I think. I think we can contribute and I think this need contribute on many different levels, right? And so we need to work in partnerships and I can contribute on different levels. They, I need to work in partnerships with stakeholders on the ground, stakeholders in the countries, as well as like, the UN system and so on.
I think all of these things somehow have to tie together. You also mentioned it's not a technical fix, and I think I've come to the conclusion that maybe we have to turn it around and say we actually need to understand much more the context and then, then we can bring in our technology. But it's not to say that we don't need to understand the technology has to be like an implicit thing, Then once we bring it in, we need to put it into that context where we know that it'll be taken up and people will, appreciate it and they will also be capacitated to apply it. So yeah, there are many bricks that need to fall in place, but I think if you have a network that has, like foot in all the doors kind of, then maybe you can bring some of these things together and make, make a difference. I, I think that's necessary.
[00:40:13] Bridget Scanlon: Yeah. Well thank you so much, uh, Karen for talking with me today. Our guest today is Karen Villholth and she has a new consultancy called The Water Cycle Innovation, and I wish her the best of luck with that and hope that we can collaborate in the future. And, uh, thanks a lot.
[00:40:29] Karen Villholth: Thank you. It was great to be with you. Thanks.
